Józef Piłsudski

Interview with correspondent from Echo de Paris.

(first half of February 1920)

The interview cited below was given at the same time as the previous one, so it concerns similar matters. Because hostile forces wished to contain Poland within its ethnographic borders in the name of fighting “imperialism”, Piłsudski made statements against policies that aimed at depriving peoples of their national identity.

The interview was published in the Echo de Paris daily of 12 February 1920 and dated: “Warsaw, February”; it was signed by Charles Bonnefon. The interview was not authorised.

– You have arrived at a moment that is particularly important and decisive for Poland. There are some questions that I, as Chief of State, will not be able to answer at this time; I cannot, for example, tell you what position Poland will take if the Entente decides to make peace with the Bolsheviks or to continue the war against them.

I would only like to say that the matter is most urgent and that Poland needs this decision immediately, no matter what it will be. Our country’s misfortunes are caused by precisely this absence of a clear decision from the Coalition. We are left to our own devices with the eastern issue because Europe is at a loss what to do. France or England may wait, ponder the matter and watch the course of events; maybe they see some benefit in that. However, we Poles are Russia’s direct neighbours. The fate of our efforts depends on our decision. We must decide either way by saying “yes” or “no”, calling for peace or for war. We cannot wait any longer.

• Would a prolonged war spell ruin for Poland?

• We are feeling the weight of the last five years, which wrought so much destruction, much more than that of the war. The war we are waging right now is not really unbearable. We did not need to mobilise as many people as a serious campaign would require. Neither the industry nor agriculture are suffering from workforce shortages. We have the greatest confidence in our troops. Last winter, our soldiers proved their spiritual strength. Without equipment and ammunition, or with hardly any ammunition, they fought admirably for days on end.

We are waging war against military organisations of very low standing compared to us. Equipment does not play an essential role in our campaign and so far, we have been able to make decisive manoeuvres each time. What we need the most is railway rolling stock in order to concentrate quickly or to shift troops.

All my experience with the Bolsheviks is giving me faith for the future. These soldiers have bad commanders, are poorly led and lack fortitude. Their small advance guards are valiant, but the main forces that follow them barely deserve to be called an army.

I have thoroughly studied the manner in which the Bolsheviks fight. Here is the result of my experience so far: when defending, the Bolsheviks hold out until the evening. As soon as the night falls, they run away. When attacking, they can only fight for a few hours, then they run out of stamina and are good for nothing.

In terms of manoeuvring, the Bolshevik army has very poor skills.

I really do not consider it very dangerous, although German officers are providing training and developing plans for the Bolshevik staff.

• And Kolchak?1 – I objected.

I was met with a burst of sincere laughter.

– Kolchak was even worse. His army, which consisted of officers without soldiers or mercenaries without any patriotism, was badly organised as well. Advance guards fought skilfully, but the main forces were worth even less than those of the Bolsheviks.

Currently, I am not afraid of Germans either – they will become a terrible danger to us only later. I was very much concerned about the German concentration in Courland. I knew that they were well-armed, well-organised and lacked nothing. However, their troops lacked enthusiasm and we saw how the Latvians, badly equipped, without ammunition, almost without artillery, with only two laughable batteries, routed those great warriors.2 This is a fact that cannot be explained unless we account for the Germans’ very low spirits. They are depressed, crushed by the weight of their defeat. Despite the fact that Ludendorff, Hoffman3 and others dream of the monarchy’s return after some campaign in Russia, I am convinced that the Germans will not fight the Bolsheviks. They are completely exhausted. The German people are buckling under this burden.

General, you are returning from Vilnius. Will you tell me about your impressions from the trip?

The Chief of State’s face becomes radiant, he smiles.

• Well, I’m a child of this country! Everyone knows me and loves me. I am a local celebrity (laughing). They welcome me in Vilnius like a citizen of that city who shares all its aspirations.

• Are there as many Jews in Vilnius as they say?

• Their numbers have decreased considerably. Before the war, Vilnius had 200,000 inhabitants. Since that time, all suburbs have been incorporated into the city, but it still numbers only 120,000 souls. Many Jews have left.

• General, what is your policy towards Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine?

• I am a realist who does not hold any prejudices and does not formulate any theories. I only think that we need to carefully determine the means at our disposal in advance and adjust them to the goal that we are pursuing.

The will of the countries we occupy is the only determining factor for me. Not for all the world would I want Poland to rule over vast tracts of land inhabited by hostile populations. History has demonstrated that in the long run, these scattered concentrations of people are dangerous. Just look at Austria, look at Russia. A country that is now only being revived like Poland should not be burdened with such costly problems.

We are bringing freedom to these unhappy countries on our bayonets, without any reservations. I know that many Poles do not share my opinion. They attribute the unwillingness of some of our neighbours to become Poles to “deficits of the mind and of the heart”. Some of our patriots claim that deep inside these people are Poles, although they are not conscious of that. This was the language spoken by Russians and Germans as well. They also attributed the Poles’ repulsion towards Russia or Germany to deficits of our minds and of our hearts.

Bringing freedom to our neighbours will be the glory of my life – as a statesman and as a soldier. I know the historical ties that bind us to them and I know that these ties often became closer after the partitions of Poland. By liberating these oppressed peoples, I want to obliterate the last traces of the partitions.

But to bind them to Poland by force – never! This would be committing new violations in response to the violations committed in the past.